weaving machine hacking was:[Re: EPROM / IC Burner]

Discussion:

Yair Reshef

2014-09-24 09:19:48 UTC

hey
i was asked by my local college to hack their industrial weaving machine.
the problem
only method to upload patterns to the machine is by export to
image/text file from a pc and write it line by line to the UV EPROM
card > . http://imgur.com/a/TeQcG#8
that means countless hours of writing line by line into the eeprom
writer > http://imgur.com/a/TeQcG#0

what way would you attack this problem?

PDF of EEPROM -
http://www.st.com/web/en/resource/technical/document/datasheet/CD00000515.pdf

On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 12:06 PM, Udi Finkelstein

http://blackstufflabs.com/2013/11/18/conversione-programmatore-tl866cs-a-tl866a/?lang=en
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-411-minipro-tl866-universal-programmer-review/

notice that there are two models, the TL866 and the TL866CS which lacks
the ICSP programming port, and is cheaper by 10$-15$. there is a hack for
converting a CS model to noon - CS, but since the hack is at least 6 months
old, the manufacturer may have already implemented countermeasures. so if
you don't need ICSP programming, want to save a few bucks, and be
adventurous, pick up the CS model.

It's not a question of passwords. Usually when a Micro is
read-protected, it simply cannot be read back, period.
The only way to crack these kind of micros is either via an intended
backdoor in the firmware, unsecure code (buffer overflow on your micro??) -
both are unlikely, but the common tricks are to play with the power supply.
sometimes running it on a marginal voltage can be used to bypass the
security uses.
In extreme cases, you can find examples where people have decapped the
IC (using hot nitric acid), shielded part of the die and the exposed it to
UV to clear the security fuse.
http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?page_id=40

Thanks Udi,
I will check the numbers of my PICs
and I really don't know if they have password,
I hope not :-(

Hi Gal,
I don't visit TAMI very frequently, I'm mostly active on the mailing
list (not facebook).
As for your PICs, it would help if you specify the exact model you
have.
Do these have a code protection option, and do you know if your PICs
are protected?
If yes, I don't think I can help much (there are techniques for
bypassing that, but they are not straightforward, and I'm not an expert on
the subject).
Udi

Udi,
I would really like to sit with you some time in the close future and
talk about that
or even try to read the info from some pics I have.
When you will have the time.
בתאריך יום שלישי, 23 בספטמבר 2014 16:30:38 UTC+3, מאת Udi

I have two programmers - one is an old Labtool 48, which requires
Windows XP at most and stopped receiving updates years ago, and the other is
a newer chinese TL866
(http://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-411-minipro-tl866-universal-programmer-review/).
They are not at TAMI, but if you have specific needs maybe we can arrange
something. I also have an old EPROM eraser (with a UV lamp), but I've never
checked it.
Ahh... the old days... When I was really young (high school, in the
mid-80's) I used to work on various commodore hardware, mostly adding Hebrew
characters to commodore dot matrix printers. I had a Promenade C1 programmer
for my C64
(http://mikenaberezny.com/hardware/c64-128/promenade-c1-eprom-burner/) , and
my debug cycle was a function of the # of EPROMs I had at hand, and the
cycle time of the EPROM erase UV lamp I had :-)
And remember, you can always write a '1' bit to '0' but not the
other way around, so I would make incremental changes and test them.
I think my biggest achievement was neutralizing a checksum check at
the beginning of the EPROM, with the firmware written for an obscure NEC
8-bit controller. I fed the mnemonics and opcodes into a primitive C64
database I had so I could sort them by opcode and have a more convenient
table for my pencil and paper disassembly.
Udi

Hi Jr,
This is what I am looking for,
I just don't want to buy a new one and using it every two years.
I know it is some sort of ancient history but still, there are many
working things with burned IC's that needs to be replace.
I have some work parts that there are a few PIC chip's that I need
to replace but the manufacturer will not sell them only
a new set that cost about 600 Euro.
I will check it next time I will be at TAMI,
Thanks

there is actually an eprom burner with several vintage IC's having
clear windows on them
i think it was last in the white shelves on left back wall of
hackerspace, around the 3rd/4th shelf
this is ancient tech btw , maybe not what you were looking for??
On Monday, September 22, 2014 4:05:52 AM UTC-4, Udi Finkelstein

What IC do you specifically need to burn?

Hi all,
I am new here and wanted to know if there is an EPROM/IC burner
at TAMI ?
Thanks,
Gal
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Udi Finkelstein

2014-09-24 10:13:01 UTC

Permalink

the memory on the card is an eprom, not an eeprom which is much smaller
but electrically erasable.

first step is to reverse engineer the eprom data format. should be
straightforwrd since looking at the ancient machine it probably doesn't
implement encryption or compression. just draw a simple pattern, read back
the eprom and compare.

once you find the format, build a new card but replace the eprom with a
similar nor flash (you can pull them out of dead motherboards :-) ) you can
tie the extra address lines to switches and have multiple patterns per
card.

now you can either build your custom programmer out of a high pincount
arduino, or just use an of the shelf programmer and use ZIF sockets on your
new card.

Post by Yair Reshef
hey
i was asked by my local college to hack their industrial weaving machine.
the problem
only method to upload patterns to the machine is by export to
image/text file from a pc and write it line by line to the UV EPROM
card > . http://imgur.com/a/TeQcG#8
that means countless hours of writing line by line into the eeprom
writer > http://imgur.com/a/TeQcG#0
what way would you attack this problem?
PDF of EEPROM -
http://www.st.com/web/en/resource/technical/document/datasheet/CD00000515.pdf
On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 12:06 PM, Udi Finkelstein
http://blackstufflabs.com/2013/11/18/conversione-programmatore-tl866cs-a-tl866a/?lang=en
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-411-minipro-tl866-universal-programmer-review/

notice that there are two models, the TL866 and the TL866CS which lacks
the ICSP programming port, and is cheaper by 10$-15$. there is a hack

for

converting a CS model to noon - CS, but since the hack is at least 6

months

old, the manufacturer may have already implemented countermeasures. so

you don't need ICSP programming, want to save a few bucks, and be
adventurous, pick up the CS model.

micro??) -

both are unlikely, but the common tricks are to play with the power

supply.

sometimes running it on a marginal voltage can be used to bypass the
security uses.
In extreme cases, you can find examples where people have decapped the
IC (using hot nitric acid), shielded part of the die and the exposed

it to

UV to clear the security fuse.
http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?page_id=40

Thanks Udi,
I will check the numbers of my PICs
and I really don't know if they have password,
I hope not :-(
××ª××š×× ××× ×©×××©×, 23 ××¡×€××××š 2014 22:36:32 UTC+3, ×××ª Udi

PICs

are protected?
If yes, I don't think I can help much (there are techniques for
bypassing that, but they are not straightforward, and I'm not an

expert on

the subject).
Udi

Udi,
I would really like to sit with you some time in the close future

and

talk about that
or even try to read the info from some pics I have.
When you will have the time.
××ª××š×× ××× ×©×××©×, 23 ××¡×€××××š 2014 16:30:38 UTC+3, ×××ª Udi

I have two programmers - one is an old Labtool 48, which requires
Windows XP at most and stopped receiving updates years ago, and

the other is

a newer chinese TL866
(

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-411-minipro-tl866-universal-programmer-review/
).

They are not at TAMI, but if you have specific needs maybe we can

arrange

something. I also have an old EPROM eraser (with a UV lamp), but

I've never

checked it.
Ahh... the old days... When I was really young (high school, in

the

mid-80's) I used to work on various commodore hardware, mostly

adding Hebrew

characters to commodore dot matrix printers. I had a Promenade C1

programmer

for my C64
(

http://mikenaberezny.com/hardware/c64-128/promenade-c1-eprom-burner/) ,
and

my debug cycle was a function of the # of EPROMs I had at hand,

and the

cycle time of the EPROM erase UV lamp I had :-)
And remember, you can always write a '1' bit to '0' but not the
other way around, so I would make incremental changes and test

them.

I think my biggest achievement was neutralizing a checksum check

the beginning of the EPROM, with the firmware written for an

obscure NEC

8-bit controller. I fed the mnemonics and opcodes into a

primitive C64

database I had so I could sort them by opcode and have a more

convenient

table for my pencil and paper disassembly.
Udi

Hi Jr,
This is what I am looking for,
I just don't want to buy a new one and using it every two years.
I know it is some sort of ancient history but still, there are

many

working things with burned IC's that needs to be replace.
I have some work parts that there are a few PIC chip's that I

need

to replace but the manufacturer will not sell them only
a new set that cost about 600 Euro.
I will check it next time I will be at TAMI,
Thanks

there is actually an eprom burner with several vintage IC's

having

clear windows on them
i think it was last in the white shelves on left back wall of
hackerspace, around the 3rd/4th shelf
this is ancient tech btw , maybe not what you were looking for??
On Monday, September 22, 2014 4:05:52 AM UTC-4, Udi Finkelstein

What IC do you specifically need to burn?

Hi all,
I am new here and wanted to know if there is an EPROM/IC

burner

at TAMI ?
Thanks,
Gal
--
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Udi Finkelstein

2014-09-24 10:18:54 UTC

Permalink

the schematics aren't really readable, are these schemas of the machine or
the programmer? looks like the machine.
given the programmer schematics (does it use pure logic or a micro?) It
might be easier to reverse engineer from there.
overall it looks like an entry level reverse engineering project.

Post by Udi Finkelstein
the memory on the card is an eprom, not an eeprom which is much smaller
but electrically erasable.
first step is to reverse engineer the eprom data format. should be
straightforwrd since looking at the ancient machine it probably doesn't
implement encryption or compression. just draw a simple pattern, read back
the eprom and compare.
once you find the format, build a new card but replace the eprom with a
similar nor flash (you can pull them out of dead motherboards :-) ) you can
tie the extra address lines to switches and have multiple patterns per
card.
now you can either build your custom programmer out of a high pincount
arduino, or just use an of the shelf programmer and use ZIF sockets on your
new card.

notice that there are two models, the TL866 and the TL866CS which lacks
the ICSP programming port, and is cheaper by 10$-15$. there is a hack

for

converting a CS model to noon - CS, but since the hack is at least 6

months

old, the manufacturer may have already implemented countermeasures. so

you don't need ICSP programming, want to save a few bucks, and be
adventurous, pick up the CS model.

micro??) -

both are unlikely, but the common tricks are to play with the power

supply.

sometimes running it on a marginal voltage can be used to bypass the
security uses.
In extreme cases, you can find examples where people have decapped

the

IC (using hot nitric acid), shielded part of the die and the exposed

it to

UV to clear the security fuse.
http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?page_id=40

Hi Gal,
I don't visit TAMI very frequently, I'm mostly active on the

mailing

list (not facebook).
As for your PICs, it would help if you specify the exact model you
have.
Do these have a code protection option, and do you know if your

PICs

are protected?
If yes, I don't think I can help much (there are techniques for
bypassing that, but they are not straightforward, and I'm not an

expert on

the subject).
Udi

Udi,
I would really like to sit with you some time in the close future

and

talk about that
or even try to read the info from some pics I have.
When you will have the time.
××ª××š×× ××× ×©×××©×, 23 ××¡×€××××š 2014 16:30:38 UTC+3, ×××ª Udi

I have two programmers - one is an old Labtool 48, which requires
Windows XP at most and stopped receiving updates years ago, and

the other is

a newer chinese TL866
(

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-411-minipro-tl866-universal-programmer-review/
).

They are not at TAMI, but if you have specific needs maybe we

can arrange

something. I also have an old EPROM eraser (with a UV lamp), but

I've never

checked it.
Ahh... the old days... When I was really young (high school, in

the

mid-80's) I used to work on various commodore hardware, mostly

adding Hebrew

characters to commodore dot matrix printers. I had a Promenade

C1 programmer

for my C64
(

http://mikenaberezny.com/hardware/c64-128/promenade-c1-eprom-burner/) ,
and

my debug cycle was a function of the # of EPROMs I had at hand,

and the

cycle time of the EPROM erase UV lamp I had :-)
And remember, you can always write a '1' bit to '0' but not the
other way around, so I would make incremental changes and test

them.

I think my biggest achievement was neutralizing a checksum check

the beginning of the EPROM, with the firmware written for an

obscure NEC

8-bit controller. I fed the mnemonics and opcodes into a

primitive C64

database I had so I could sort them by opcode and have a more

convenient

table for my pencil and paper disassembly.
Udi

Hi Jr,
This is what I am looking for,
I just don't want to buy a new one and using it every two years.
I know it is some sort of ancient history but still, there are

many

working things with burned IC's that needs to be replace.
I have some work parts that there are a few PIC chip's that I

need

to replace but the manufacturer will not sell them only
a new set that cost about 600 Euro.
I will check it next time I will be at TAMI,
Thanks

there is actually an eprom burner with several vintage IC's

having

clear windows on them
i think it was last in the white shelves on left back wall of
hackerspace, around the 3rd/4th shelf
this is ancient tech btw , maybe not what you were looking

for??

On Monday, September 22, 2014 4:05:52 AM UTC-4, Udi Finkelstein

What IC do you specifically need to burn?

Hi all,
I am new here and wanted to know if there is an EPROM/IC

burner

at TAMI ?
Thanks,
Gal
--
archive and web access

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/hasadna

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Yair Reshef

2014-09-24 10:36:36 UTC

Permalink

schematics are for the big machine, try the full res version. it was
stitched from smaller pics

but the important thing is the
card pinout on the bottom right corner > Loading Image...

and this http://imgur.com/a/TeQcG#4

your thoughts reflect my understanding, still would like to decypher
the pinout, i dont get it.

On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 1:18 PM, Udi Finkelstein

Post by Udi Finkelstein
the schematics aren't really readable, are these schemas of the machine or
the programmer? looks like the machine.
given the programmer schematics (does it use pure logic or a micro?) It
might be easier to reverse engineer from there.
overall it looks like an entry level reverse engineering project.

Post by Udi Finkelstein
the memory on the card is an eprom, not an eeprom which is much smaller
but electrically erasable.
first step is to reverse engineer the eprom data format. should be
straightforwrd since looking at the ancient machine it probably doesn't
implement encryption or compression. just draw a simple pattern, read back
the eprom and compare.
once you find the format, build a new card but replace the eprom with a
similar nor flash (you can pull them out of dead motherboards :-) ) you can
tie the extra address lines to switches and have multiple patterns per card.
now you can either build your custom programmer out of a high pincount
arduino, or just use an of the shelf programmer and use ZIF sockets on your
new card.

http://blackstufflabs.com/2013/11/18/conversione-programmatore-tl866cs-a-tl866a/?lang=en
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-411-minipro-tl866-universal-programmer-review/

Hardcore :-)
I will check the data sheet of the chip,
Ibeleive it needs to be written there.
I think I will also order from Ebay the one you said you have
I had seen the TL866 at about 50$
Thank you very much for the help.
בתאריך יום רביעי, 24 בספטמבר 2014 10:07:28 UTC+3, מאת Udi

Thanks Udi,
I will check the numbers of my PICs
and I really don't know if they have password,
I hope not :-(
בתאריך יום שלישי, 23 בספטמבר 2014 22:36:32 UTC+3, מאת Udi

I have two programmers - one is an old Labtool 48, which requires
Windows XP at most and stopped receiving updates years ago, and
the other is
a newer chinese TL866
(http://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-411-minipro-tl866-universal-programmer-review/).
They are not at TAMI, but if you have specific needs maybe we
can arrange
something. I also have an old EPROM eraser (with a UV lamp), but
I've never
checked it.
Ahh... the old days... When I was really young (high school, in the
mid-80's) I used to work on various commodore hardware, mostly
adding Hebrew
characters to commodore dot matrix printers. I had a Promenade
C1 programmer
for my C64
(http://mikenaberezny.com/hardware/c64-128/promenade-c1-eprom-burner/) , and
my debug cycle was a function of the # of EPROMs I had at hand,
and the
cycle time of the EPROM erase UV lamp I had :-)
And remember, you can always write a '1' bit to '0' but not the
other way around, so I would make incremental changes and test them.
I think my biggest achievement was neutralizing a checksum check at
the beginning of the EPROM, with the firmware written for an
obscure NEC
8-bit controller. I fed the mnemonics and opcodes into a
primitive C64
database I had so I could sort them by opcode and have a more
convenient
table for my pencil and paper disassembly.
Udi

there is actually an eprom burner with several vintage IC's
having
clear windows on them
i think it was last in the white shelves on left back wall of
hackerspace, around the 3rd/4th shelf
this is ancient tech btw , maybe not what you were looking for??
On Monday, September 22, 2014 4:05:52 AM UTC-4, Udi Finkelstein

What IC do you specifically need to burn?

Hi all,
I am new here and wanted to know if there is an EPROM/IC
burner
at TAMI ?
Thanks,
Gal
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Udi Finkelstein

2014-09-24 11:42:00 UTC

Permalink

can't get the high res pic on my phone. will try on a desktop later
(probably only next week).

the card pinout should be trivial add there are no other components on it
and you can easily trace the card.

Post by Yair Reshef
schematics are for the big machine, try the full res version. it was
stitched from smaller pics
but the important thing is the
card pinout on the bottom right corner > http://i.imgur.com/mzRD36i.jpg
and this http://imgur.com/a/TeQcG#4
your thoughts reflect my understanding, still would like to decypher
the pinout, i dont get it.
On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 1:18 PM, Udi Finkelstein

Post by Udi Finkelstein
the schematics aren't really readable, are these schemas of the machine

Post by Udi Finkelstein
the programmer? looks like the machine.
given the programmer schematics (does it use pure logic or a micro?) It
might be easier to reverse engineer from there.
overall it looks like an entry level reverse engineering project.

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